Whether it’s the man or the woman, when your partner withholds sex it has a definitely bad effect on a relationship. Over and above what it’s doing to the relationship, what is it doing to you?
Many feel that the spouse withholding sex is a free pass to cheat. Personally I don’t see it that way. I believe if someone is unhappy in a relationship and you’ve tried everything you can think of to fix it to no avail, then it’s time to “man up” and bring it to an end, before you go looking elsewhere. That’s just the “right thing to do”.
Many of us are dealing with passive aggressive partners that withhold sex as a way of controlling us, a way of punishing us for things that have angered them, and because they are incapable of allowing themselves to get so intimate that they have to admit to themselves that they need us. I was surprised to learn that even without this little “fly in the ointment” that according to a study done by Bob Berkowitz, Ph.D., and Susan Yager-Berkowitz, M.A. that thousands of people in a heterosexual committed relationship where the man was the one to end the passion, an astonishing 24 percent of the female respondents told us that their partners stopped having sex with them almost from the beginning. Fourteen percent said that their husbands ended physical intimacy in the first year of marriage, 8 percent said that sex stopped prior to marriage, and 2 percent said that it ended on the honeymoon. (Only 8 percent of the male respondents claimed they stopped being intimate during or before the first year of marriage.) Are there that many passive aggressive males in relationships?
So what does it do to you when your partner doesn’t ever act like he wants to have sex with you? One thing it does is dump all the work needed to develop and maintain a sexual bond on you. They don’t have to take responsibility for any problems in the marriage, and if the marriage ends they can point a finger at you for being the problem. Sound familiar?
It leaves you feeling unattractive and undesirable. You wonder what happened, why your partner no longer wants you. You start to internalize their rejection and blame yourself. You start by thinking you are not attractive enough, sexy enough, thin enough, smart enough. There is the danger of depression, loss of hope, and there is certainly a sense of shame. Shame over the fact that your own spouse does not desire you. This shame keeps you from sharing your problems with someone else. You find yourself with no support system and the growing belief that there is something terribly wrong with you. You really need to take control and start protecting yourself immediately.
When I first got involved with my BF, I figured I was an answer to every red-blooded American guy’s dream. Oh no, not that I consider myself beautiful, or have the perfect female body, but I loved sex. I had no problem initiating it, giving it, or trying new things. I didn’t mind getting woke up in the middle of the night by a little jab or feeling arms around me, hands starting to get a little playful. I didn’t realize at the time that his being “courteous” and not wanting to wake me up even though he wanted to, was actually a sign of what was to come. I never rejected him, in fact telling him any time he had the desire to please, go for it. So what happened?
I quit initiating the intimacy. Once I quit being the one to do the pursuing, days turned into months, months into a year. I don’t even know now how long it’s been since we’ve shared any intimacy what so ever. Right now, I know my weight is a big issue and I get that. What I didn’t understand was when I lost almost 50 pounds to be more desirable, and it didn’t make any difference. While he complimented me and supported my weight loss efforts, it didn’t lead to any more intimacy at all. The lesson I learned? It’s not us!
According to Dr. Irene Matiatos, a PhD. psychologist in New York,
“if an individual has done everything in their power to be gracious, loving, and understanding towards their partner (which is their responsibility to themselves), and sex is still not forthcoming, then the individual needs to choose whether or not sex is important enough to merit threatening the relationship. “Forcing” or cajoling another to give what they don’t want to give will only lead to resentment and problems down the road.”
You really need to ask yourself if this is how you want to live for the next 5 years, and for the 5 years after that, and so on. If not, the only way to survive it is to run from it. Take your damaged self-image, your shame and any unhealthy beliefs you have come to feel about yourself and get out. Once you’ve done that, find a qualified therapist that can help you take back your power. It’s a tough road and it may be slow to repair but with time and work, you will once again feel sexually desirable, attractive, and maybe even loved.
Filed under: abuse, causes, coping, hidden feelings, mental health, passive aggressive, passive aggressive behavior, passive aggressive spouse, trust | Tagged: abuse, coping with a passive aggressive, games passive aggressives play, hidden feelings, mental health, passive aggressive boyfriend, passive aggressive relationships, passive aggressive spouse, withholding sex
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[...] Many feel that the spouse withholding sex is a free pass to cheat. Personally I don’t see it that way. I believe if someone is unhappy in a relationship and you’ve tried everything you can think of to fix it to no avail, then it’s time to “man up” and bring it to an end, before you go looking elsewhere. That’s just the “right thing to do”. [...]
My Gosh, I could have written this blog by ladybeams. I initiate and he rejects. I ask what the problem is and he gives all kinds of excuses. My question is can these men ever change? I think my husband’s problem began in early childhood when his mother deserted the family and took the baby with her but left the other kids. She did not keep in contact and later in life she pops up and then moves without letting him know and gives no phone number to him. This is repeated every few years. I think he operates from a child’s faulty belief system and tries to be independent, never asks for help, hates to give help, never volunteers, can not sustain friendships because he refuses to phone people or invite them and even refuses to call them back after they try repeatedly and leave messages. He seems to see everything as a battle where he has to win and that means letting out his pain and anger in passive aggressive ways. I think he just uses me to release his anger, I don’t think he loves like most people love. Not giving me what I need, he wins. Its all some sort of game to make himself feel better. I think it is an addictive game that has become his life. It is a depressing joyless existence that he is trying to drag me into. Can he ever change or is it hopeless?
Arborgreen- Thanks for stopping by. If this blog sounds familiar, at least you’ve learned you’re not alone. LOL. There are more than a few of us.
Sounds like your husband had a really sad childhood. A prime environment for growing a passive aggressive man. Let me say here that I am no doctor or therapist or anything, but from all my research the only hope of change is if he realizes what he’s doing, owns up to it, and is willing to seek help to change it. Unfortunately, most won’t admit that it’s anything with them, so the rest is hopeless.
Unless he gets help and really works on trying to heal the past and change the present, he’s never going to be able to connect with you emotionally the way people do. You being his wife, he probably harbors a lot of the same fear and resentment toward you that he’s had for his mother all this time. It’s hard for them to distinguish the difference. It sounds like he’s afraid to get close to anyone as they may leave him, and then where would he be? You’re right. It is very addictive behavior that he was doing probably long before you came along and will continue to live long after you’re gone.
Have you tried discussing with him how he feels about what his mother has done? Or tried talking to him about how he makes you feel when he ______? You could try leaving one of the books on the coffee table or somewhere he’ll see it, about the passive aggressive man, etc. (There’s a whole list under “recommended reading”). Unless he’s willing to put into the solution to the problem, I’m afraid it is hopeless.
Good luck and feel free to stop by anytime. Sometimes it’s at least good to have a place to vent. You may want to see about getting a therapist for yourself for support, if he won’t see one with you or by himself.
I think sex means different things for different people. For some people, it’s just a physical release. For other people, it’s validation of their attractiveness or virility. For some, it’s about intimacy and bonding. And, there are people out there who see it as being for procreation only.
I think that if there is a mismatch in meaning between partners, it can cause a problem, even when there is no passive aggressiveness going on. In a normal relationship, if one person experiences a lack of desire and thinks of sex as just a physical release, s/he might not realize that the rejection is causing the partner to question the strength of the relationship or their own attractiveness. So, even when no PA is involved, this is a tricky issue.
If the passive aggressive is withholding sex, it’s probably about intimacy and/or attractiveness validation for him, and he assumes it means the same for you, so that withholding it is a way to get back at you.
But, by withholding, he loses those things, too, which is that thing about passive aggressiveness. We hurt ourselves to punish others, and even if we hurt more, as long as they hurt some, it is worth it to us, for some reason.
In the last few years, my husband has opened up enough to talk about how much he was hurt, felt abandoned, rejected etc. by his mother and still is hurt. He really does not see and has no empathy that he is treating me the same way his mother treated him. It seems that he can not grow up, and can not take a step forward to separate emotionally from his childhood. He may be trying to keep some false hope alive that he will someday get what he never got as a child. The problem with that is that you can’t go back, it can’t be fixed, undone or redone. He is hurting the very people who really do love him now. He has talked in person with his mother but she does not see what she has done, she has no remorse. She is just the nicest person when you meet her but very selfish and out of sight out of mind is her way of living. He really has tried to get closer to her but just when he thinks he is making progress she always disappears again. I think this keeps the past alive for him. He is still trying to please her, to have her like him, to have her want him.
He wants to be independent and safe by avoiding intimacy. I think he fears acceptance as much as rejection and fears getting too close. It is as though he collects life’s injustices and uses them as an excuse to punish me. He is purposefully driving me away perhaps to continue being a victim so he can say “my mother left me and my wife did too”
I don’t think that he can see that the passive aggressive behaviors are a problem for him and he isn’t uncomfortable enough to change. However, I am uncomfortable and do not want to live for the next 5 or more years on only crumbs of affection. The man can only hesitantly touch my hand or shoulder for a second or two now. And this is only after I have talked with him extensively and he has been in counseling for 8 months. This is as far as he is willing to go and think that it is just the minumum that he is doing to pacify me and make me wait. “Wait” is his favorite game and excuse.
Here is what I would like to say to the passive aggressives out there.
When you stop adding injustices to your collection, when you grow up and stop playing the victim, when you can come to terms with your past and move on into the present, when you can change the misinformation and faulty childish beliefs that guide you, when you let go of your unresolved anger, when you stop hurting others, trying to control, using and manipulating because it makes you feel good, when you stop using lies and excuses to provoke, when you can stop withdrawing and withholding affection, when you can share yourself and actively participate in life, when you can allow yourself to express real affection without any underlying passive aggression, then we can have a relationship.
Arborgreen
Hi Arborgreen- glad you found your way back here. Wow, I thought you did an excellent job of pretty much covering it all in your last paragraph here. It’s a shame we couldn’t get some of our passive aggressives to read that and take it to heart, realizing it’s them.
It’s a shame your husband still feels he has to seek his mother’s approval instead of looking at it with a grown up mind and realizing that that’s who she is, but he doesn’t have to let her keep hurting him. Some people don’t know how to ever stop vying for the love they missed. My Grandmother went to her grave never giving my mother the acceptance she wanted so bad. My whole life all my mother did was push away the very people she so desparately wanted to love her. At least your husband is willing to go to counseling. That’s a good sign if it’s doing some good. At some point we have to take responsibility and break the cycle to stop it from happening in the next generation.
I can’t say that I blame you looking down the road and not wanting to settle for possibly less than you’re getting now when it comes to your husband’s affections. It’s a pretty lonely way to live while living with someone. Just remember the problem is his, which in turn affects us, but the only real power we have is to change ourselves and our circumstances. We don’t have the power to “fix” them, especially if they aren’t willing.
Arborgreen, you seem to have a real handle on your situation. I have only recently defined things in my own “relationship” and I use that term cautiously now. It is the most traumatic “relationship” I have ever had.. I divorced a man who tried to control me but I am committed to a PA. Go figure. It wasn’t long into our relationship that I found out how a lack of maternal nurturing had impacted my PA….maybe two weeks or so…At that point we spoke openly, easily, sharing our histories. It took over a year before passive aggressiveness showed up and raised it’s ugly head. The adjustment has me spinning. I didn’t see it coming. I didn’t really know how devastating it could be. The man I love most in the whole World shared that his earliest memories reflect the fact that his mother was totally immersed in the death of her own brother…so much so that she was not there to nurture her own child. While I found that very sad indeed,at the time I had no idea how much a lack of maternal nurturing could turn out a 59 year old PA. On perhaps our four or fifth evening together, we came back to my home after an evening out, I invited him to kick off his shoes and stretch out on my big comfy sectional, which he did and it wasn’t long before he crawled up into my arms, with his head on my chest and my arms holding him tight I could feel his need and upon reflection I know that what he was looking for was what he had missed as an infant/child. She was never there for him..ever. I’m fully aware that my own maternal instincts kicked in as well. I am the classic rescuer and any therapist would probably say that I’m also a codependent. I readily admit …I need to be needed. It didn’t take long before he had become my priority. Everything I did everyday swirled around making him happy. He knows he is my priority. He has told me that no one has ever made him a priority. He needs that..It scares the shit out of him but it keeps him coming back to me. I know all of these things. After a year of a one on one relationship and an incredible intimacy, things have come to a screeching halt. Withdrawal and witholding are now an everyday occurance. I was fortunate to find Dr Wetzler book at the library and I caught him sneeking a peek at it in the car. Now he knows that I have a clue. That scares him too. Everything scares him now and he goes through elaborate arrangements to avoid discussing anything so right now I feel like my hands are tied which ties my stomach in knots. Anyone in my position knows that feeling. His fear is now impacting me… impacting my life. and for the first time in my 60 years I’m facing the fact that maybe loving someone as much as I do him isn’t going to be enough. I keep thinking that “something” is going to happen to turn this around again but if that doesn’t happen I know that I will never be the same proud, independent, positive, free spirited female that I used to be. Don’t you ask yourself what you may have done in your lifetime to warrant this kind of punishment from God? I think I know what I did but it’s too personal to share. God has found the way to punish me. He couldn’t have found a better way. Now that I have emptied my soul for the day perhaps I can function. Funny, I used to keep a journal for such personal thoughts. Now I’m sharing with anyone who will listen. What would we do without this site? I go now to try and find something productive to do with my day. God bless.
Thanks Ladybeams:
How did your mother’s hurt of never achieving your grandmother’s approval play out in your own life? How have you come to terms with it all?
At some point, I think an adult child has to realize that they may never get approval from a parent but thats okay as long as the adult child approves of themselves. Life is full of choices ….chose how you want to live…be who you want to be…its how you react that determines you fate. You can decide to live a life worth living or continue playing a game of being a victim and hurting others.
I have adapted, accommodated, put up with and ignored the passive aggression for as long as I can. I have endured the bad behavior and naively believed the excuses and actually made some for him. I have been in a marriage all alone. One person working at a marriage just does not make it …especially when the other person uses intimacy as a weapon. He has just been a ghost, a mirage in our family. He peers in but does not participate. I will do everything I can to help him but I will not allow him to use the same excuses to control me any more. I just worry about my young adult sons and how the behaviors that he has modeled may affect them in their future relationships.?
In retrospect, I see the patterns of behaviors and responses and options of responses that have played out. I have to say my husband has a very high intelligence and is a master of the game. Once you realize the patterns then you can see through the continuing maneuvers. The difference now is that I still give him opportunities to participate in the marriage but do not trust that he will, and am not surprised when he doesn’t.
I call him on some things but told him that I am not going to police his every move. I am not his mother. How he responds and treats me is his choice and how I respond is my choice. His actions speak louder than his words. If he continues to be absent from this marriage, I will also withdraw.
He thinks I will just hang out forever like this but I gave myself a year to come to terms with everything that is going on, to get my youngest off to grad school and to figure out where and how I am going to live. The year will be up in 3 months and after a real sense of grief and loss, I now actually feel a sense of relief that I am free to go on with my life.
Arborgreen
Hi Arborgreen- Thanks for asking about my mother and my life. I feel bad for her that she’s so mean and nasty a good percentage of the time, but I just ignore most of it. Like I said, and you’re saying here, is that we need to be aware of and break the cycle. It didn’t effect me that bad, but my sister is going through a lot of the same thing and has continued a lot of the same traits.
It does affect our children how we live, regardless of what we say. Hopefully you’re able to talk with your sons and explain about relationships being a two-way street. I was lucky with my son as I had a middle daughter he was very close to who helped teach him a lot about how relationships should go. He’s still passive aggressive, but he’s temporarily moved back home and we’re working on that. I think it’s mainly with me. LOL.
I think it’s great that you’ve set a timeline for yourself. Does your husband understand your deadline also? Just curious. I understand about withdrawing, as that is how I have chosen to be in my relationship. It’s a pretty cold way to live. The other nite I woke up and he was actually cuddled behind me like we used to do (way back when) and it was so odd, I think that’s what woke me up. Maybe he’s coming to the point where he’s getting tired of no affection, etc. I don’t know.
It’s good you’ve allowed yourself to grieve and are in a good place now with it all. I wish you all the luck in the world. Please be sure and let me know how you’re doing. When you actually decide to make the break, if you do, you may still feel more sense of loss, but that’s ok. If you need a place to vent, I’ll be here.
Hi Lady Beams:
Yes, I do need to talk to my sons. One is home for Spring Break this week and I will take him out for dinner on one of the nights that hubby works and talk with him.
Let me know how it goes having your husband back. I hope it works out cause that will mean that it is possible for mine.
Mine will act like he is trying but can’t keep up the pretense for long no matter how I encourage him. He does not want to change but he just wants me to think he has.
No, he does not know about the year deadline.
This weekend I went to an antique auction with an old friend and was being nosy so I just asked her what was the straw that broke the camel’s back that ended her marriage of many many years and she told me that she came home to find her husband dressed as a woman. They went to counseling and he said he had been doing it since he was 13. His mother never gave him any affection and he did it for comfort to feel loved and close to her. Gosh we mothers can sure screw up our kids. Anyway, she said that while she was just dumbstruck by it all..the part that she could not get over was the sense of betrayal. They were both older when they married, a second marriage for both and she thought that they had discussed everything openly and honestly…his kids…exwife, money, her exhusband, how each felt about sex, cheating, religion, politics,etc. They lived together 2 years before marrying and dated 2 years before that. Cross dressing just never entered her head. I guess that is also how I feel…Betrayed…someone who says they love you and then purposefully withholds and rejects affection with you to hurt you. Doesn’t sound much like love to me.
Let me know how it works out with the husband.
Arborgreen
My Dear Arborgreen- Sorry to disappoint, but that was very short lived. I’m afraid that’s partly my fault as I’m not very encouraging. I used to be, but I realized pretty quickly it didn’t do any good. It’s been so long that we’ve been nothing more than glorified roommates that, other than the little smooch goodbye I don’t respond very well to his affection. I guess I don’t want to allow myself to get emotionally attached again where his lack of attention and sexual desire could hurt me anymore. He consistantly does the opposite of what I tell him I want so I’ve basically just quit.
Boy, bet that was quite a surprise for your friend, aye? Just goes to show the old adage is true. You never really know someone until you live with them, and sometimes not even then. I found out my ex was bi-sexual and a child molester to his first wife’s daughter, but it was a while after I married him. When we got divorced, because he had adopted my first daughter he got visitation. I tried to stop it, but the mediator just thought I was being vindictive. He ended up molesting her also. He’s been basically on the run since 1993.
I think we have a right to feel betrayed. When you start out in a relationship and the other person is affectionate and loving, to a certain respect you have a right to expect that to continue. I know the novelty wears off, and the “honeymoon’s over”, but it shouldn’t go away completely. Of course if they showed what they were really like from the beginning, we probably wouldn’t have gotten involved, right?
good gosh! I nominate your bisexual child molesting ex for both the America’s Most Wanted and Dog the Bounty Hunter shows. I think that you should turn in the details to them by email on their web site and get some justice after him. To think that he is out there probably hurting some other innocent child. Give them his SS#, relative’s names, last phone numbers and addresses, and any other information that you know about him, an old picture, where he went to school, kind of work he does, cities/states he has lived in etc. Get him off the street.
With men like this, I now understand why women become Nuns.
Arborgreen
I did turn him in, of course, but the DA dropped the case. Then when my daughter got older she tried to pursue it again, but the system is too lazy to chase him since he’s out of state. I feel bad if he’s been involved with anyone after us, but not much I can do. One thing I was able to accomplish is he hasn’t been back to our state in 16 yrs. They’re supposed to be going after him for welfare fraud too, but I haven’t seen any results from that either.
I say America’s Most Wanted or Dog the Bounty Hunter if he still has warrants …they could get him and I would love to see some justice in action.
I had a long talk with my youngest son over dinner out last night. I think he gets it. I told him how worried I am about how he and his brother will relate to women and why. You do what you learned as a child and he learned that every request from me is seen as a demand by his father and how there is no team work, no working together as a family. That Dad has strategies for making me frustrated…tells me he will do it later, does a sloppy job or forgets. That there is no affection, no parenting, never inquires about your interests or work and that he knows which buttons to push, no complements, no acknowledgement, and the times that he suddenly abandons everyone at the last moment like childbirth, death of a parent or child’s surgery. I explained the awful childhood that his Dad had and how he is trying to come to terms with it.
Unlike his Dad, my youngest has lots of friends and real goals. I hope that is a good sign. He voiced that an individual makes his own luck and his own life and can’t blame failures on anyone else. That no matter how many times you get knocked down, you have to have the courage to get up. You don’t drown by falling in water but by staying there.
I think he will be okay but it is the older son I am really worried about because he pretty much dismisses anything I say as just like his father does. Here is the difference between the two. At five years old the eldest tried to ride a bike without training wheels and fell off. He went inside and did not get back on for a year or two. The youngest tried at five also but he fell and cried and fell and cried and kept trying for hours until by sunset he could ride the bike to the corner and back. This trait of giving up is very much like my husband. He always says why something is not a good idea or why it can’t be done and if that is not successful he tries to delay it, do a sloppy job, or forgets it or refuses to help.
I am not sure when I will have some alone time with the oldest but I am working on it.
Arborgreen
I found the comments really interesting as I just realised this week this is the problem my new husband of only 11 months has. In my case I left my country, job, family, friends and financial security to be with him. I could not understand what his problem was. It was almost as if he realised he’d made a big mistake after the wedding with the way he treated me. I tried and tried to connect and every time I asked for time together he always had something more important to do. Found things to complain about all the time from my grocery shopping habits to the way I raised my children. He was negative about everything on this earth! Imagine how this affected me being in such a vulnerable position in a different country. I am the complete opposite and very optimistic and happy.. until I found myself under his control and he took away all my self esteem. I knew he had negative tendancies while we were dating for two years but nothing this bad until the wedding.
Luckily I was able to leave the situation for a while and return to my own country and friends etc to try and work out what was going on as I knew it wasn’t right. It took me a few months and a lot of research to come to understand it all. We’re still living apart now. I’m not a quitter and would dearly love to try and sort things out. He has all the classic symptoms and I’m just in the process of thinking about pointing the finger and telling him this is his problem not mine as he keeps telling me.
I have all my confidence back and feel it’s make or break. If he doesn’t think he has a problem then I walk away.
Hi Pamela- Oh my gosh, what an awful position to be in. It must be so hard without family, friends or anyone for support. I know how it feels just to give up my place to move into his, but you really gave it all up, didn’t you?
I’m glad you got a chance to break loose for a bit and get some of your independance back. It sounds like you’re in a good place with yourself again, which is very good and very lucky for you. Men like this rarely change so it’s a good thing that you have made a stand and will save yourself if he’s not willing to look at his own problem and get help. I don’t think it was that he thought he made a mistake after the wedding neccessarily. These kind of men are just like that. They sucker you in and then they withold affection, etc. as a way of controling their partners.
Good luck to you and let us know how it’s going. I’m hoping and thinking we’re all sort of an inspiration and source of support for each other.
Great discussion ladies. I am cotemplating a separation from my husband of 18 years. We have 4 kids aged 17-7. My husband has withheld affection from the beginning, and sex stopped 3 eyars ago. We tried therapy, but it is not working, and he refuses more, or to change at all. he wants a marriage in anme only. He has a passive-avoidant personality, and is getting more intractable by the day. His mother supports him, and blames me all the way for being too critical, etc. It is somewhat comforting to see that I am not alone, but I dread telling my younger kids that their world is about to change drastically. They love their dad, and he is a devoted father–and sadly, a LOUSY husband.
Hi esqlatr- Welcome. Thank you for sharing your story.
I’m sorry to hear the therapy isn’t working, but unfortunately I guess with this kind of personality it rarely does. 18 yrs. is a long time. I’m sorry he couldn’t see his share of being part of the problem and help keep it together. Of course, you’re pretty much fighting a losing battle if his mother is there backing him up and enforcing his thought about how bad you are.
It’s really sad when there are kids involved. I know my oldest daughter resented the hell out of me when I left my ex. There’s so much that goes on behind the scenes that they don’t know about. It makes it hard for them to understand. The thing you have to think about is how is your marriage affecting them? Or the way their father acts toward you?
I hope you continue therapy for your own support, or even some family therapy if it appears to affect your children too bad. The main thing is to let them know that just because you and him are splitting doesn’t mean anyone loves them any less.
Good luck and stop by anytime. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you that things go better than expected. You never know. Kids are pretty perceptive. They may already realize things aren’t good this way.
Hi everyone: It is so difficult to break away. Its like I love so much and he doesn’t. All of my trying and love can not make up for the fact that he will not try or show his love. I am like someone who is physically abused and we all wonder “why doesn’t she just leave him” but she can’t because she is still hooked to loving him and to his lies. He hits her and she comes back for more. I am doing this too..just in a different way.
I keep thinking of the phrase…you make time for what you want and love… and then I realize he has no time or love for me and no desire for me sexually. He loves the computer games, sitcoms and reruns more than me. His need for an ego boost and the need to hurt me by avoiding, withholding affection, and rejecting me is greater than his need to experience love, sex and any togetherness with me. I can’t change that and in my case I don’t think he wants to change anything. It is all he knows and he is unwilling to give it up. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on about passive aggressive behavior and this weekend read the Sedona Method which talks about letting go of past hurts to be able to get on with your life. I think it would work for him if he really wanted to change but he hasn’t realized that he needs to change. He has gone to counseling and has rehashed his hurts from childhood but I don’t see that he is getting over them. He is still using them to play the victim and blame everything on his mother but not working through to figure out why he rejects me. He has not gone on to give up the behaviors and I can’t change him, I can only change my reaction to him and get on with my life. The grief is overwhelming for me… maybe because I was so stunned by it all and never saw it coming and never put 2 and 2 together for so long. One of my friends likens it all to a tick on a dog’s back. There the tick is in the Dog’s life sucking the life’s blood and not contributing anything but uncomfortableness and disease. The tick will ultimately suck everything it can until either the dog dies or it rids itself of the tick.
I hate to give up but this time I can’t see it working out now that my trust is gone. I just can’t find any info on men that have successfully overcome passive aggressive behaviors and have happy fulfilling marriages.
Jane
Oh Jane- I’m so sorry. My heart aches for how much I can tell you love this man. I’m afraid you won’t find many happy endings with this kind of man, because they are very rare. Most of them
1) Refuse to admit they have or they are the problem
2) Many don’t really want to change even if they do see it
It takes a long time for therapy to really do any good when trying to repair a lifetime of hurts. Hopefully he at least has a good therapist, but even they will tell you getting a passive aggressive to change is pretty tuff. We have a lady self-admitted PA that visits here and she fights these habits constantly, and she realizes she has a problem and really wants to change.
For encouragement that saving yourself and taking your life back may be your best option, read Rita’s message. That could be any of us.
Please, keep in touch and let us know how you’re doing. Be sure and come here if you just need a place to “let it out”. You are a valuable person, and I’m sure you used to feel that way. It’s time to get some of that good feeling back.
Ladies I was married to a P/A for 18 years. Me and my kids suffered at the hands of his passive aggressive, aggressive aggressive, for years. Guess what. He went to China to work and found a phillipino woman and basically threw her in my face and now we are divorced and he is planning on marrying her. So much for all the years I tried to make a sexless marriage work. I think he is even taking an erectile dysfunction medication to aid him in his sexuality with her. She is 20. Wasted Years. Wasted Life. I actually tried to kill myself three times from the utter shame, humiliation, and sheer gratification that he displayed while signing the divorce papers. I am okay now, but a passive aggressive is like poison to your system. they give you little doses till you can’t take anymore and then wham, rip the rug out from under you and walk away as if they never knew you.
Hi Rita, Welcome to the site.
I’m so sorry to hear it hasn’t ended well for you. Unfortunately it hardly ever does. There’s been women I’ve seen be miserable for over 30 yrs. before they finally take the step to save themselves. I’m glad to hear your doing better now.
It’s not really wasted time if you have children out of it all. Hopefully you have a good relationship with them. I know this doesn’t help much, but you shouldn’t be ashamed and humiliated knowing you tried to work it out. It was his problem, and now, Lucky you, he’ll be someone else’s problem and give you a chance to live again! The best revenge is living well. Try to remember that. LOL. The other thing to remember is that as soon as he marries her, if he does, he’ll probably do the same to her that he’s done to you. And if God is really good, she’s just marrying him to get over here, and then she’ll dump him.
You have all kinds of good stuff in your future. I hope you’re joining a support group somewhere or seeing a therapist. It really does help to have someone to talk to. You’re welcome here anytime. We all feel your pain.
Wow Rita what a jolt. It really boils down to we are the only ones trying to have a relationship and to make it work. Poison is a good word for passive aggressive behaviors.
I read the intro to a Dr. Phil book yesterday and his discription of himself as a teenager is much like my husband’s family situation I think. Wish I could get my husband to read it. But I can’t seek solutions for him, he has to do that himself.
Over the years I wasted a lot of time trying and wondering why I was not appealing to him, and finally I realized that I wanted and was actively giving and seeking affection. Then I began to wonder why he was avoiding intimacy and rejecting me. I wondered if he was having affairs, if he was repulsed by me, if he hated me, and wanted a divorce, if he had an STD or AIDS, if he was impotent, etc. I even wondered if he was gay. I read that 1 out of 5 gay men have been or are married and many have kids. for the longest time I wondered if he was gay and if we married young and he did not know it or was trying to avoid it by marrying.
I wondered if he was asexual, trangendered or some other strange sexual. You always hear that married men who are serial killers, rapists etc. always have wives who never had a clue what they were doing.
So I wondered and doubted myself.
Glad you did not succeed with the suicide, you have to live not only for youself but also for your kids. What kind of life would they have with just him?
Arborgreen
Are there any ladies out there who came to the conclusion to have a lover on the side for affection and intimacy and just ignore their husbands behavior? Just wondering.
Hi Donna- Welcome, and I apologize that it’s taken me so long to get back to you. Usually I’m much faster but I’ve been working on my own homefront as of late.
I’m sure there are, but I don’t advocate that kind of dealing with your situation. I know it’s probably an attractive solution, but in the end, and there’s almost always an end, too many people get hurt and it can get really ugly. I feel if you’re that unhappy in a situation then get out of it, where you’re free to see and do as you like. The clean-up’s a lot easier. LOL
Hi Donna: I guess for me if I was going to have an affair, I would have to divorce my husband first. It all just gets too messy and Two wrongs doesn’t make it right. Why would you stay in a relationship if you are attracted to another man? Would it be to hurt your husband the way he is hurting you? Would it be to wake him up? To show him that you are attractive and that he could lose you? Heck. don’t listen to me…I can’t even figure out why I stayed so long. Guess its like an addiction. I have been settling for the crumbs of affection doled out every once in a while. And now never.
The end of June is my time limit to decide wether to stay or go. Unless some dramatic breakthrough occurs I am leaving. I have been setting things in order. I have alot of legal stuff to get settled with my siblings since my Dad recently passed away and I was hoping it would be completed by now. Once it is in order then I will either buy them out of his home or take the inheritance and buy my own place. I have my own checking account and my own savings and I own my car. I have a great education and a wonderful job. One of my boys is married and the other is in Grad school and will graduate in a year. I have been house hunting and know what area I want to live in just in case I buy my own home. Yep, I can do it. In reality, I have been living on my own for years so it really won’t be much of a change except that I will not have to be reminded of how much of my love, time, energy etc I have wasted on a man who is incapable of loving me back.
Hi Aborgreen- Thanks for your input. I think you’re right in your thinking. It’s just better to make a clean break all the way around instead of just adding to the mess. You just can’t make a wrong situation right no matter how you try.
I’m sorry your own situation hasn’t improved any. It’s always so hard to admit you wasted so much of your time, but even when it’s awhile, sometimes you still need to cut your losses. It sounds like you’ve done well preparing ahead. Good luck to you and thanks again for being an important part of this blog.
Thanks Arborgreen for the reply
The answer is “Yes” to all of your questions, but I honestly did become attracted to and like another person who shows emotion and feelings,talks to me, compliments me, is full of life, inspires me, makes me feel confident about my ideas,etc. I pushed this man away for a long time because I am married and didn’t want to give up on my marriage.
My husband just began to see a counselor to talk about his inabilyt to connect emotionally. I am happy about that but at the same time I am so tired of it all and I want to have hope but I’ve just been going through it for so long that i can’t stop having convos with the other man. It was like in the other man I saw what it is like to be desired. I saw what it was like to talk to someone and they are not staring ahead at a TV or laptop. . I see what it is like to have a conversation with a man and talk with someone that has interest in what i am saying, looks at me in the eyes.
Its confusing now because of the addition of him going to counseling. I’m not quite sure what to do yet.
I’ll keep everyone updated.
Donna- Congrats on your husband at least admitting he’s got a problem and taking a step to do something about it. Don’t feel too bad if you don’t hold much hope anymore. Even tho this is great news, sometimes it’s just a little too little too late.
I’m not sure the confusion doesn’t come from throwing a third party into the mix, but I hope you are able to decide quickly which way you want to go and things work out for you for the best.
I understand your situation. I am also so very tired of waiting for an emotional connection with my husband and would give anything to have someone desire me, look at me, touch me and be interested in love. I want to have fun with someone and plan and share and work together. I realize that after all of these years and all of the excuses, it just isn’t going to happen again with my husband. Love is just not a habit or a need that he has with me. His deep seated anger is greater than any desire or love for me. At the same time, I refuse to let his emotional anger drive me to have an affair. The damage would be far too great and most importantly my children would never forgive me. I would have trouble living with myself. For him it would just be another victory and he could play the victim forever. His mother rejected him and then his wife had an affair. No, this will be a civilized parting at least on my side and my children will understand why and he will understand that he abandoned and rejected me emotionally so that I had no other option. I would give anything to have someone hold me and kiss me again but I am determined to be able to say that I have tried and tried. That I have been open and communicated my needs and that I gave him every opportunity to change and to heal.
Jane
Jane- Very good. Even tho you’ve been through so much, it sounds like you have your thoughts together and heading in a positive direction for the rest of your life, even if you have to leave part behind you. I know it’s hard and you didn’t come by all this good sense overnight. You go girl!
Had a long talk with the husband last night and will try again tonight.
I asked about his counseling and he told me that he is not going anymore. Don’t know why I was so shocked. Its like he is Mr. Monk on TV and does not tell you anything. It all has to be pulled out of him by asking the right questions. Some sort of emotional connection is missing in him. I asked why he stopped going and he said that he is just rehashing the same stuff. I said it sounds like you were stuck and either did not want to delve deeper or that you were not willing to come to terms with the past and let it go. He said that he needs to talk to his mother to resolve it. I asked why he can’t just let it go. He feels that he must let her know how he feels about the rejection and abandonment in order to get over it. I asked if he wants to hurt her or if it was an excuse for him not to move on. I asked when he plans to do this and he was vague so then I asked…are you saying this has been eating you alive for 40 years and it is the reason that you behave the way you do and the reason you can’t step into the present or future to have a normal fulfilling emotional relationship with anyone until you talk with her and yet you have no commitment or time frame in which to resolve it? I told him it sounds like just another excuse to me…procrastination. How long will you wait …another 40 years? I told him that I do not plan to wait indefinitely for him to find salvation.
Now then he volunteered that he will go to Atlanta on his day off next week and talk with her. I asked what he hopes to gain from this. He said that he wants her to understand. I asked what if she never understands or even admits what she did and continues to do? The most heart felt apology would not take away his pain. Will he still be able to come to some kind of terms with it all?
I will not hold my breath that he will even go. There will likely be some work related excuse and since he is the boss he could take off today if he wanted . I have heard it all before well I guess I should not be pessimistic but at the same time not get my hopes up that he will follow through. I can’t help thinking that talking to his mother is not likely to solve anything.
I told him that he has done to me what he says his mother did to him and that he seems to dismiss it all and does not understand how I feel. His apology did not seem heart felt …too little …too late. I told him that I have no sense of trust…just betrayal and abandonment and rejection and I don’t have any simpathy with him playing the victim anymore. Grow up and release the past. I told him that I will not allow him to hurt me anymore.
At least we are talking but that is the only positive thing I can say about this mess.
Arborgreen
Aborgreen- Thanks for sharing. Actually I think your husband has the right idea if he actually does it. He may not get the response he’s looking for, but at least he will have said it all out loud to her. If it doesn’t work for him, what I had my daughter do is put it all down in a letter. Even if he doesn’t mail it, it gives him a chance to fully express himself and the hurt that he feels. Then, once he gets all that out maybe he can start building forward.
I’m sorry to hear he quit therapy, but he probably has stalled until he takes care of this one step. That’s good that you got him to talk to you as much as he did. Mine just completely clams up. It’s also good that you were able to express to him how he’s hurt you, but be careful because if he doesn’t feel safe expressing himself to you, he’ll clam up also. If he doesn’t end up going to see her, then maybe you can suggest the letter thing.
Good luck and congrats on getting any communication from a passive aggressive at all. LOL.
Thanks, the letter is a good idea. Like most passive aggressives he just tells me what he thinks he should say or what he thinks I want to hear and it usually in no way resembles the way he really feels or what he will actually do. While I can get him to talk a little, it is not often. Last night did not work out as far as talking about problems. I can’t push him too much and I have to just sort of drop things into a conversation now and then and not harp on it or he feels controlled. He absolutely NEVER takes my suggestions or advice so unless it is something that he comes up with he won’t try it. I can work methods of finding solutions into a conversation but it can’t be a conversation about him. Thats probably why he stopped counseling. He mentioned that the counselor really didn’t come up with any suggestions. And see he isn’t willing to do the work himself to dig deep and find solutions because he is getting so much of a boost to his self esteem by staying a victim and hurting me. He is probably looking to download some passive aggressive behaviors on the counselor too by resisting suggestions since I am not playing the games any more…but it looks like the counselor did not want to play either. I will just have to see what happens next week. He mentioned he would call his mother this week to tell her he wanted to talk and would be driving down to Atlanta to see her next Thursday …but he has not done that yet. I tell my students that PROCRASTINATION is the greatest cause of failure and the hardest habit to break.
Arborgreen
Aborgreen- You may be right. The counselor may have made a few suggestions and when your husband didn’t move forward with them, he quit taking your husband’s excuses. There’s a lot of benefit to staying the victim, even when it makes them miserable. Excuses abound.
I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you for next week. If he does go ahead and go see her and actually tells her what’s on his mind, it could be a huge step. Sometimes I just ask the BF if he’s called “so and so” yet as a little reminder. If he says no, I don’t say anymore but I feel like I planted the seed.
You are so right about procrastination. I don’t know how I got this way but I am a terrible procrastinator. In the process of breaking that one, but it’s not so easy. LOL.
ladybeams – I think the “third party” opened my eyes to alot of things and in turn it made me really stand up for myself. I don’t think he would have gone to counseling if this lion (Leo) hadn’t roared so loud. I think maybe he sensed something was different this time with my complaining. who knows.
Happy he is trying now though and I will support him ……taking one day at a time. I still plan on chatting with my friend from time to time though . He keeps me sane. he too has told me to support my hubby through the counseling and see what happens.
Donna- It sounds like you have things under control. If the “third party” gave you strength, that’s a good thing. It also sounds like he wants you to be happy or he wouldn’t encourage you to work things out with your hubby. At least with your husband going to counseling now, if it doesn’t work out and you supported his effort, you’ll be able to feel like you gave it every chance. Sometimes we need that in order to not feel guilty if we leave, no matter how right we are. I’m encouraged for you.
Arborgreen- my husband also has abandonment issues with his Mom and dad. I’m hoping that will come up in counseling. Sounds like your husband really is scared to confront his Mom. She has done a number on him. He may have quit because he couldn’t go any farther until he did what the counselor wanted him to do…talk to his mother. It’s too uncomfortable and his reaction is to not deal with it and disconnect.
Hi Donna:
I think my husband definitely knows that this time things are different because I told him that I have caught on to all the patterns of behaviors and that I refuse to waste the rest of my life like this or to put up with the emotional abuse. But at the same time he may think that if he is just a bit more crafty that he might sneak in the PA stuff and I won’t know it. (afterall he fooled me for ages and ages) I still think that he thinks that it would be easier to fool me than to change himself. Afterall, I am the one that is uncomfortable and unless I can make him see the future and feel uncomfortable too, he will have no reason to change. I think he went to counseling just to gain some time hoping that I would forget or lose interest in focusing on him. In the past anytime I got upset he would be good for a week or two but it never lasted very long and he would be up to old tricks. He would tell me that he loved me and was stressed and that I misunderstood something or twisted his words or exaggerated and it isn’t what he meant. It was never his fault, always mine. He would always say we should wipe the slate clean, forget and start over and I always did but he just continued the PA tricks.
Just like Ladybeams BF, my husband stayed home and did not work for almost 2 years once and he did nothing around the house really. I even paid for him to go back to college for a second masters degree which he has yet to use. Thank God he is working at a good job now so I don’t have to feel guilty if we split.
Many years ago, his mother gave us all sweat shirt/pant PJ sets from Sears for Christmas with our names monogrammed on the front. Mine was spelled wrong and so was my son’s. She just isn’t caring or nurturing. Most of his life he never knew where she was. A month before he went to college he found her and spent 5 days with her and then after he got to school she moved and he did not know where she was again for four years. She had his address but she never even told him she was moving. She still moves at least once a year and never tells him so he probably thinks that if he expresses any kind of resentment she will cut him off totally.
I still have to find a time alone with my oldest son to discuss all of this PA stuff before it carries over to his marriage.
Arborgreen
Aborgreen- I don’t think they believe we will ever leave, and that is part of the problem. Especially if we’ve stayed and maybe threatened, but never did. Hopefully he does get that you’re serious this time. PA’s are good at doing what you would like for a little bit, they just can’t carry it off for very long because they don’t realize they really do need to change, not just pretend.
That’s good that you’ll discuss this with your son so that he understands what’s going on with you and his Dad, besides giving him some insight into his own relationships.
Last night my very PA husband asked what I wanted him to do and I told him that alot of it is the little things like a kiss or hug hello and goodbye and a phone call once in a while, looking at me, paying attention to and making time for me. I told him that we don’t even have any friendly connections left any more and I refuse to be in a marriage alone. I just don’t know if it may be too little too late. My way of thinking about him has changed. Even if I can forgive it all, I can’t forget. This morning I was pleasantly surprised to get a peck on the cheek goodbye, and its a start. He is trying but at the same time last night he also threw into the conversation that he has Sunday off and will be off work next Thursday instead of his usual Wed. and that he has to change his dental check up. His way of saying that he is not planning to to talk with his mother. I don’t think he wants me enough to release the past. On the one hand he says he needs to confront her but I think he still can’t risk that she may cut him out of her life again. He is more aware but not uncomfortable enough to release the past and move on. He wants to keep her by not saying anything …even though he says he can’t go on until he talks to her and lets her know what she has done. At the same time he wants to keep me but probably just so he can continue the PA games. I suggested that he write a letter (which I thought was a good suggestion) to get his feelings out and that he could mail it or not.. As ever, he does not like my ideas or advice or suggestions. He says he has to talk with her. We all know that he could go talk with her either Sunday or Thursday but as of last night I don’t think he really has any plans to do it. If asked he would say he doesn’t want to ruin her Easter and that on Thursday he has a dental appointment for a checkup and cleaning. He has no plans to confront her .
Sorry, just bitching and being pessimestic.
Arborgreen
Hi Arborgreen- I can’t blame you for being a little pessimistic. It does sound like he’s setting everything up for a big excuse for not talking to her. If she’s basically alone, he can’t be ruining much of an Easter, it’s not like she has small children you wouldn’t want to fight around or anything. He could take her a nice little bouquet of Easter Lilys which she would probably think was really nice, and have his talk with her all at the same time. Of course if he scheduled his dental appointment really early, he could always go afterward.
I’m sorry he didn’t like the letter writing idea. He’s really kind of foolish. It would have given him a way out of confronting his mother head on, and get his feelings out at the same time. I think sometimes the PA is so busy making sure they don’t do what we want, they lose sight at how easy some of this stuff would be on them.
I wish you a Happy Easter whatever he decides to do, altho I know it’ll be kind of hard when you’re thinking about how he could be talking to his mother if he really wanted to. I’m going to be trying to get the BF to call his son, AGain, who he too doesn’t like to have to confront. When I have my mimosa in the morning, I’ll say a silent prayer for you too. LOL.
What is it about calling people that they have such a phobia about. Mine will not phone anyone back…its like they have to keep calling him to prove how much they like, love, need him and then he can reject them by not returning the calls. He also loves to have me make appointments for him and then repeatedly changes them and wants me to call them to reschedule. A few years ago I caught on to this and now I refuse to do it so if he wants to go he has to do the calling and rescheduling.
Youngest was home from college and the older son and wife came over but I did not find a time to talk to the older son alone. He and the younger son went to a movie and we all went out to eat and then I had a shower to go to and the boys disappeared over at the older ones house. I will try again next weekend. Since husband never mentioned that he is going to Atlanta all weekend and I don’t believe he has phoned his mother. I guess he thinks I forgot. I will drop it into a conversation on Tuesday or Wed.
I need a truck load of Mimosas and chocolate after writing that check to the IRS this weekend. We are just going to have to start paying quarterly as it makes me mentally sick to write one large check and think how it will be so poorly spent.
I think that each child should have a course in school that would help them release the past, recognize Passive Aggressive behaviors and deal with marriage relationships. I went to a private girls school and we had a Marriage and Family course but it was just life stages and sex and pregnancy. I think I could have recognized this sooner if I had known how Passive Aggressive behavior works within a marriage to destroy trust. I suppose that I have just been too naive … It has been a real shock to me to discover that someone who professes to love me would use displaced anger to purposefully hurt me so much.
Arborgreen
Hey Aborgreen- I think you’re right. At the high school my kids went to they have a marriage class and they have to carry life-like real babies around, etc. but it’s not required. I think if all teenagers had to go through it 1) it would cut teen pregnancy 2) it would take all the fantasy out of being married and teach them how it is to have to live with someone else. It should teach about relationships and recognizing different behaviors. I think that’s an excellent idea. Now if we could just get it through Congress. LOL.
Crossing my fingers for your H and his mother for Thurs.
Arborgreen- using displaced anger to hurt you is a self protective habit they started doing a long long time ago. My husbands shut down behavior started in childhood when he was abandoned by his Mom. Many claim that they don’t mean to do it ,but it is their protection device since they are emotionally scarred. It’s like like an animal that has been hurt and wants to bite you before you can hurt them. They are constantly looking for and protecting themselves from that hurt. Its a sad way to live.
P.S. No, I’m not the Dog Whisperer (LOL)
Wow, Donna ..so your husband was abandoned by his mother too!! Wish we could get them into therapy together. The poor therapist! ..what a nightmare. How long have you endured this sort of treatment from your husband? Did you catch on quickly or did you make excuses in your mind for him or doubt yourself? What finally made it all click and you realized what he was doing? What kind of childhood did you experience? My parents were not really demonstrative of affection and my mother in particular had flat emotions..not happy…not sad…and very selfish. So I grew up living on the crumbs of affection and always giving more than 100% for little or no return from her. I do not have brothers so I never really understood what my husband was doing until the boys started to dismiss me too.
Arborgreen
Forget Thursday. Last night I casually dropped into the conversation my schedule for the rest of the week…. then I asked him what time he will be back today and on Thursday. He said that he now has a phone conference and will have to go into work for half a day on Thursday so he will go to Atlanta at the end of the month. Here we go again with the delays. He is supposed to take 5 days at the end of the month of use them or lose them days but of course that can be affected by some manager getting sick, hurt, dying, or going to training so its really iffy.
I carefully worded the question not to mention Atlanta and thought he might act like he forgot the Atlanta trip…that is how he would have responded in the past.. I was pleasantly surprised that he didn’t forget and actually had a time to go. Its all still iffy but there is a bit of light in the tunnel. I won’t get excited yet as he has plenty of time to delay it all or forget or cancel it.
I am too old to wait forever. got to have a back up plan. Humm. the house was inherited fully paid for and only has my name on the deed. I wonder if I can have him ousted? I will have to check on that. I really can’t see staying in this house as it is much too big to maintain alone. I probably will sell it and find a smaller house. I am willing to give him my portion of our rental house. I also have to find out about separation agreements.
Guess it sounds cold but I am sort of excited by the prospect of being on my own. I need to get on with living. I have been dead for so long and now I just refuse to be dragged back into that dark lonely hole.
Love yes, marry again…maybe not. I obviously don’t know how to pick them. I wonder if he ever cheated? He says no but I trusted him and he emotionally abused me so I can’t believe what he says. And he worked alot out of town and out of state…. Priests have more sex than we do. So he is either asexual or finding other outlets. Like all of those wives of serial rapists and mass murders who had no idea of what their husband’s were doing, I wonder what I don’t know. Porn addiction, homosexuality, cross dressing, hookers, affairs???? Wish I could have him take a lie detector test and be tested for STDs.
Arborgreen
Arborgreen- I hope he follows through, but I think you’re very smart to be thinking ahead in case he doesn’t. If you’re willing to give him your part of the rental, maybe you can get him to give you your house and move out without any hassle. I’m sure there is away to have him “put out” but it would be so much easier all the way around if he would just go peacefully. You need to have him sign an interspousal or quitclaim deed also, even if the house is in your name alone. It just keeps the title from being clouded because you have been married to him. It basically means if he has any claim on the property, he gives it up.
I know what you mean about wondering if he’s done things behind your back, but you can drive yourself crazy wondering about that kind of stuff. Surely if he had, you would have seen some kind of clues, high bills for restaurants when he’s out of town, etc. I think priest have had more sex than most of us. LOL (No offense to anyone. Just a lot in the news).
Good luck as you get things in order. That’s always the smartest way to go. If you decide to not leave after all, at least you have things set up in case you ever have to.
Thanks for the quick claim advice. I will get one and then figure out how to bring it up. The weekend went well, he went to work and I pulled overgrown Virginia Creeper and blackberry vines out of the rose garden. I made brownies and lasagna, took some lasagna to a neighbor who just got out of the hospital and roses and brownies to two friends. One son called with car problems and the other just called to talk to me cause his wife was working so I invited him for lasagna. I grocery shopped, cooked, cleaned, washed, read a book and had a good time with friends. I had to come back to work today to rest. Overall, I can see now that life without him will be okay. I guess that I have really been without him for years. I also looked for smaller houses on the internet cause this one is too big to stay in no matter what.
Arborgreen
That’s terrific Arborgreen. Sounds like you had a great time. It is possible to get your life back! It’s amazing what’s out there when we don’t spend all our time worrying about what they’re going to do.
Wow, this article describes my marriage. I am a (not to brag) very attractive 25 year old female. I have a great body and a pretty face. I always have men hitting on me when I’m out without my husband. In bed I love sex and am open to new things, but my husband is ALWAYS “too tired, baby.” Too tired? Screw that, I now realize that he is passive aggressive. Thank you for writing this article.
Hi Wife and welcome!
If you know about his childhood and you understand what causes someone to become passive aggressive, and 2 and 2 make 4, then you can be pretty sure that’s what it is. Unfortunately, it doesn’t usually get better as time goes on. My first instinct is to tell you to RUN while you still realize that you are attractive and you still feel good about yourself.
If you still really love this man, you can try talking to him about it or see if he’ll go to counseling with you, but I have to tell you even with counseling, the odds of things changing are not real good. Unless he realizes he has a problem, and unless he’s really willing to work at changing, a lot of times it’s just another way to manipulate you. They’ll agree to go, but then not take any of the suggestions or put any of the work into it, which is typical of a passive aggressive.
I hope things work out well for you. Glad you found the info here useful. Please, check back in any time and let us know how you’re doing.
To wife:
Knowing what I know now and being far older than you with many more years of marriage and 2 grown kids…I say run as fast as you can. Do not waste your life with a man who can not really feel love or give love. It gets more difficult as the years go by to disintangle yourself. It also hurts the kids. I can’t tell you how much of an idiot I feel for not knowing what he was doing for so long. I have wasted too many years with a man who rejects me sexually, abandons me emotionally and avoids affection. Most men would love to have someone who enjoys sex. My husband has made me doubt myself, wonder about his sexual orientation and made me feel totally alone in a marriage. He has given up all responsibility for making this a successful marriage and life together. He has invested nothing. Silence is his weapon as he lacks the ability to express emotions. I think that my husband’s emotional growth was stunted by childhood trama of his mother leaving the family and abandoning him. He never developed that inner character normally. He never had anyone to model behaviors of love and acceptance. It is just easier for someone like this to just take care of their own needs and not worry about a wif’e’s needs. It is hard for him to discuss anything serious. I am always the one to bring it up. I read somewhere that ongoing adult sexual relationships require commitment, emotional responsibility, accountability, and acknowledgment of each other. It also requires communication of feelings and valuing the other person in order to have an ongoing growth of closeness between husband and wife. Masturbation is just his easy way out because it requires none of these things.
Its the week of the long awaited take -it-or -lose -it time off days for my husband. He plans to do the yard and pool today. He says that he plans to see his mother on Wed. but has not phoned her yet. On the plus side..he did bring it up, not me. I asked him what he thinks he will achieve, he said he just wants to get it off his chest. I told him that I hope he is not expecting a sincere apology as I am sure that after all of these decades she has justified it in her own mind. I hope he is not expecting to get all of the love and attention from her that he feels he lost in his childhood or that she can somehow make up for all of the pain and make all of the hurt disappear. For me this may be the home stretch. He is very much afraid of losing me and knows that I mean it because I have never threatened it out loud before. He also knows that I have caught on to all of his patterns of behavior and will not tolerate even one bit of PA from him. The kids are grown and there is nothing to hold me in the marriage as he has severed almost all of our connections. He is definitely trying to reconnect but I have seen these patterns of behavior for short periods before so it is going to be more of what he does rather than what he says that will influence me. He knows that I have been in counseling and will not accept the blame for his PA stuff any longer. He has pushed me away for so long that I know I can stand on my own 2 feet. He has refused to take responsibility in our relationship and now I am independent. His attempts may just be too little, too late and I have told him that.
arborgreen
Here’s a new addition. He phoned me at work which I have told him I would appreciate but more than that he shared a hurt. He phoned his mother but could not get through on her land line and finally got her on a cell. she had also changed the cell but his neice knew it. This woman moves at least once a year and changes phones all of the time. He probably spoke to her a month ago and she said nothing about moving. So he is still planning to go see her on Wed. He has directions to her new house. This woman who is almost 80 continues to move at least once a year and often twice a year without telling her own son. At least he shared with me this time. His mother is nuts. I’m telling you, someone should write a movie script or sitcom about his family. And lucky me, I married into 2 sets of in-laws plus his 104 year old grandmother, 84 year old gay uncle, his 2 brothers and 2 sisters, their various ex spouses, children, grandchildren, step siblings and their families and various aunts and uncles and cousins etc. Its a zoo.
Arborgreen
Arborgreen- LOL. I had to laugh out loud at your last couple of lines. It sounds like a zoo, and I hate to say I understand all too well what you mean.
First, I want to thank you for responding to Wife. It’s good for her to hear what to expect from others who have stayed in these kind of relationships, besides just me.
I think it’s great that your husband is making these steps. It sounds like you may actually have his attention. It certainly sounds as if he’s trying to communicate better and let you in on more of what he’s thinking. His mother moving all the time and not even mentioning it to him sounds like a bad joke. Why would she tell her niece and not her son? My ex’s mother used to move without telling my husband’s brother, but that was because every time he found out where she lived, he would weasel his way into living with her and her supporting him (well into his 40’s). Obviously that’s not a problem here, but she sure seems like that’s what she’s afraid of. Are his other siblings from her? If so, does she tell them anything? You’re right. She’s definitely a bit strange. No wonder he has issues. That’s pretty drastic to even change her cell number. I’d be curious what it is between him and her to make her behave so drastically.
Good luck on his moving forward in doing his share to try and keep you two together.
Thanks for the great advice about the Quit Claim Deed. I am close to settling my mother’s estate and buying out my sisters shares of 2 homes. My family can be a zoo too. Because they can not agree they have let these 2 home deteriorate for 5 and a half years and in this economy the value has decreased. Anyway, during all of the bickering, I got my husband to sign the Quit Claim Deed and then I bought the sisters out. Well, it is all done but their signing which they have agreed to so maybe I should not count my chickens but I have handed over the cashier’s check to the attorney today and signed the stuff I need to and it is up to them. If they don’t sign, I am planning to tell them that I am no longer interested in bickering any longer. This was my last offer and they took it so if they change their minds before signing then I will just go spend the Cashier’s Check money on a new house for me. Its a win-win situation for me.
If I they do sign, then one house is mine entirely and the other is 3/4 mine and 1/4 his. I don’t care about his share except that he can go live there if he does not reform and I will live in the other one. The stress has somewhat lifted and I have taken care of a place for him to go and I have taken care of myself for the first time in my life. I have always been busy sacrificing and taking care of others and this time I am looking after me and what I want and need. I just can’t tell you what a load is lifted. I am at a point where I just need to get the toxic people out of my life. My blood pressure must have gone down because I can just feel the peace. Maybe I will take my own last name back too. I have never liked or felt an ownership in his name. It is too unusual and no one ever pronounces it correctly. Its just not me. I am going to get my passport renewed on Fri. too. Oh. I don’t see much of a change in my husband. Yes, he talked with his mother and maybe he is trying some but it doesn’t seem that it is the whole enchilada. He isn’t suddenly liberated emotionally and there is still that line he can’t cross. He is not playing a bunch of games but the emotional thing is still there and maybe after all these years he can’t get past that. He had no role model growing up and he has gotten away with this for so long that maybe he just can’t ever get over it. Can I live with that ? No, I can’t. Trust is fragile and I still wonder if there is something yet that I don’t know. Someone who loves you does not play PA games with you…thats not love. But al least I don’t have to worry about a house.
Hi Arborgreen! Congratulations. You sound terrific. It’s amazing once you start taking control back how good you can feel, isn’t it?
I’m glad the quitclaim deed went well for you. You said about giving the check to your attorney for the houses you’re buying from your sisters, is he handling the escrow for you? If he is, you may want to see if he did a title search. You don’t want to get stuck with any judgements or anything against the properties that you may not know about.
I’m glad your husband went to see his mother. I have to admit, I like you, was a little skeptical, but I’m glad to see we were both wrong. (Living with a PA makes you a little cynical. LOL) How did he say it went? Did he actually get to tell her how he’s been feeling about the things she’s done? Did he feel any better at all afterward?
As far as the affection and intimacy go, if you’re still interested, now may be a good time to try couples counceling. Also, it’s been long enough he may just need you to lead the way back to being how you two were in the beginning. I also know from your point of view after being rejected so many times, you don’t feel like making all the effort any more. I totally can understand that. I guess it all depends on how close to going out the door you are.
Whatever you decide to do from here, I am so happy you checked in to share. It’s so good to hear you sound so positive about your life and the things you’re doing. I’m sure you’re on the right path to being able to handle which ever way things go. Thanks for being a spring of hope for the rest of us!
Yep, title search is done too. All that is left is for the sister’s to sign and then Mother and Daddy’s estates are settled. What a relief. Funny, but it is the same offer that I made to them five years ago only now I am asking for reimbursement of the funeral expenses and care and maintenence of property. And they agreed but the attorneys still have to round up everyone and get them to sign. One more thing to check off of my list of things to do to get my life back. And if they don’t sign I can still take the money and buy myself a house. I have 2 possibilities in mind just in case.
Mother’s Day weekend was good. I finally got to talk with my oldest son alone on Saturday and I think he was shocked and had no idea about his dad’s childhood. We got interrupted so it wasn’t as in depth as I wanted it to be but it was a good start.
Ladybeams, you have great insight. You are so right about my feelings of rejection and not wanting to be rejected again but the biggest thing is that I don’t want him to service me either. If he has no desire then so be it…let me know and I will move on. And that is perhaps what I am sensing. He likes me, he loves me on some friendship level but it does not seem to equate to be a desire for intimacy beyond hand touching or a hug once in a while. Who knows maybe it will grow but after all of these years, I am not sure that either one of us trusts it to be real. I am no longer willing to do all of the relationship work and him not participating at all or only giving the bare minumum. That I feel has not changed yet. I don’t want “pretend”
affection and I do not want “servicing” to shut me up or play PA games. If he can’t feel real desire about intimacy then I don’t want it. Trust….if he enjoyed the PA games more than being intimate with me for all of those years and he enjoyed/desired television, computer games etc more than coming to bed with me or spending time with me then obviously I am low down on the totem pole as far as priorities, wants or needs go. I don’t want him to change because he thinks he should in order to keep me but because he truly desires me. I think he doesn’t want to lose me but I still don’t think he desires me. And I guess that is my real bottom line…a sense of desire is still lacking.
Arborgreen
Dearest Arborgreen- It looks like you have your legal stuff well in hand, and I am so thrilled for you that you have such a positive outlook no matter which way it goes. Plan B sounds like it would work out for you almost as well as plan A. Way to go!
I’m glad you had a nice Mother’s Day and got to have at least a little conversation with your son. It seems funny to me that your son never knew about his dad’s upbringing. Didn’t he ever ask questions, or your husband ever talk about it? Of course if it was a source of pain, I can see your husband not really saying much.
I totally get what you’re saying about the intimacy in your relationship, altho at one time I would have been glad even to just get “serviced” LOL. For all the talk my BF used to do about “I’d rather be cold than horney” or stuff to that effect, sex isn’t a priority. I always thought it was my weight because I knew that he had always liked skinny women, but when I lost 46 pounds and it didn’t make any difference, than I knew it wasn’t me, it was him. (I was down below my ideal weight then). No matter how much I would encourage him to reach for me, etc. it never worked until one day I just quit reaching for him also. Now we’ve just settled at an impass. I know at times he resents it, and he’ll show it in small ways, but that’s the way it goes. Like you, I want to feel like he wants to be loving, affectionate, and intimate. Not like it’s some obligation, or I do all the reaching out and he just accepts it.
I’m just curious, have you asked him lately how he feels about you regarding his desire for you. I know to a certain extent it wanes for a lot of men as they get older. Some of them lose too much testesterone. Then again, some are just PA’s. LOL
Oh, I forgot to tell you about his mother. She kept trying to change the subject and he said he would not let her. At one point she tried to make it all his fault and told him that if he felt so bad all he had to do was call her. This made him mad and he pointed his finger at her and said ..I was 11 years old and you walked out and never contacted me to see how I was doing. You never sent a birthday card or a Christmas present. You did not call me. When I tried to find you, not even your own mother had a phone number or an address. He told her that everytime she moves without telling him it dredges up all of the old pain for him and stabs him again with rejection and abandonment issues. He shook his finger at her and told her never to do it again.
Basically, she just made excuses. He told her that what she did was wrong. She never apologized.
At one point she said that she had to leave because she was afraid and he said and yet you left your helpless children instead of taking us all to our grandmother’s house. He told her that a good mother does not leave her children and she certainly does not move every year without telling her children where she is. He told her that a woman who drives a Jaguar and lives in a huge home can afford to send a birthday card or phone her kids.
I think his mom was probably shocked. No one has ever called her on anything. She has phoned him a couple of times since the meeting.
She is getting older and her husband probably won’t last a year. Her own mother is going to be 104 in August so this is a woman who is likely to outlive me.
She is starting to worry about who will take care of her. Her favorite child ..the baby she left with, died last year and that just leaves all of the 4 kids that she abandoned. She can no longer drive as she has macular degeneration and has been relying on a granddaughter but the granddaughter is getting married soon and moving. No one else whats her to live with them. I guess what goes around comes back around.
Arborgreen- This sounds great for your husband. Good job! He must have got a lot of his point across to her if she’s at least bothering to call now. While it’s always nice to get an apology, it sounds like he had a chance to get a lot off his chest. As you tell me about it, it almost sounds like he probably felt fairly excited telling you about it, giving you details, etc. That was one big step. It’s just a shame it took so long in coming.
While I can understand her starting to worry now about being alone, I hope she, nor your husband thinks the next step is to move her in with you. LOL. If your marriage has a chance, that sure would screw things up. That’s one place I have to give the BF credit. We have my mom living with us and he’s been very patient, complaining very little, but I know it’s hard on him.
Good luck with him moving on to the next step. Hopefully that talk helped free him a little to show you the love and affection you deserve. Hopefully withholding hasn’t become an old habit that’s too hard to break.
It is strange but my husband never talked about his parents. Our kids knew that the grandparents were divorced and both remarried but did not know the circumstances surrounding the split up or that my husband was hurt by it. I did not know alot of it until a few years ago. The kids never saw them much and were closer to my parents.
The same thing happened to me. I lost 40+ pounds and so did he but he never said a word to me about it and he certainly did not show any interest sexually so that was that. He was not much interested when I weighed 120 and was 21 years old either. I am tired of being the only one interested, the only one touching or working on the relationship. I wonder if he equates desire as a weakness? Does he feel like women will deceive and that you can’t trust them, like his mother?
I don’t know but I am tired of it all. We both went for check ups on the same day a few years ago and I saw the doctor first and asked that he not tell the hubby but saw to it that he got 6 Viagra samples and had his testosterone checked. He has used Viagra once that I know of and his levels are fine.
Yep, I asked and he says he loves me and he desires me but there has not been any step forward. He never brings up any issues himself. He rarely asks any questions at all of me unless it is about where to go for dinner. He rarely asks me to do anything. He does not compliment and he does not volunteer to help. He does not come to bed at the same time, he does not initiate any touch other than a hand hold while watching tv or a brief shoulder touch while waiting in line. I don’t know if he said that he loves me because I asked and he is just saying what he thinks I want to hear. He never spontaneously says it. Its still feels like a PA game of withdrawal to me. the daily phone calls have stopped but he still tells me when he is leaving the house. He always asks where I want to go out to eat and then he nixes my ideas so now I make him decide. It is an arduous process.
I guess I feel like he is still doing the minimum to participate in our marriage and the PA withdrawal of affection is still very much alive. One thing that I have noticed is he is not sighing. A couple of years ago he started sighing sometimes and also developed a sort of clearing his throat (which I thought was due to deviated septum and allergic post nasal drip) and since he has talked to his mother both of these things have vanished. Clay Aiken sang an old song called Solitaire and the words fit my husband to a T.
Dear Arborgreen- Oooh, that’s just so frustrating isn’t it? They say they want us, but their actions clearly show something different. It’s funny you mentioned the sighing. I catch my BF doing that also, and if I ask what’s the matter he swears he didn’t even know he let a sigh out. I’m glad to hear those two things at least, have vanished after his talk with his mother. Maybe they were a subconcious block. It could be a sign of “freeing up”. While that’s great for him, unfortunately it doesn’t sound like it’s helped you much. I’ll have to find that Clay Aiken song on line and give a listen. LOL. Keep your chin up, Girl. At least you’re one of the few ready with a “Plan B”.
I took care of my Dad for 2 years until he passed away and then my Mother for 6 years but she only lived with us for a year. It was awful. It wore me out …lifting and changing and feeding, hiring sitters when I had to work and taking off when they did not show, getting up multiple times a night. After they passed away, I told hubby that I can not do this ever again. My parents were loving and wonderful to us and we owed alot to them for helping us get a house and setting up a business etc. but I am too old to do it again and will not do it for people who never cared enough to learn how to spell my name or know our kids birthdates or visit.
These is no way that either of his parents will live with us. He has even said that he would not want them in our home.
Arborgreen- That’s so good you two are on the same page about this. It makes life so much easier. I’m pretty lucky in that my mother is pretty self-sufficient other than me fixing dinner or helping her in the shower. Not nearly as hard as what it sounds like you went through. I totally agree with you also, it’s one thing to put yourself out for someone who has been good to you. Another thing completely for someone who has acted the way your mother-in-law has.
Here are the Clay Aiken song lines that I remember
A lonely man who lost his love through his indifference
A heart that cared that went unshared until it died within his silence.
By the way, I loved the saying about you can only push a girl away for so long until she walks out of your life on her own.
Today has been tough. Son is home on break so I feel like things are on hold cause I don’t want to drag him into anything. I have not heard back yet from attorneys as to my sisters signing the deal and I certainly don’t want to call to ask as that is just another $800. in their pocket everytime they do anything even answer an email or phone call. I guess I feel like I am on hold waiting and waiting and waiting while my life just ebbs away.
Hi Arborgreen- Thanks for the couple of lines to the song. I can see why you say it’s so perfect.
I’m glad you liked the little “bumper sticker”. I was sort of surprised I didn’t get more of a reaction to it than I did. I thought it was very appropo for this site.
Hope things are starting to move forward for you. Even when we feel stalled temporarily, just remember you have the wheels in motion. Iwould tell you patience is a virtue, and I am sure it is, but since I have none I’m not one to preach. LOL
Papers are signed now and the houses are mine. I now own two homes free and clear on my own and 3/4 of another one with my PA husband. I have a place to go if I need to and can sell this one if I need to and I can throw him out and tell him to go live in the one he owns 1/4th of if I want to. I can rent two or sell two of them and buy another one if I choose. This gives me options and a bit of power to direct my own life. Most of all it gives me a bit of peace. Now if I can just get the flash flood flooring repaired in one of them with tile instead of carpet and hardwood that was there before and I will feel really good. I am looking forward to my youngest going back to grad school so that I can push ahead with my life. I have things to say and just want him out of firing range.
Here is what I learned from my PA husband:
I learned that all of my ideas, plans and work are deemed a bad idea or dismissed or undone by him.
I learned that anything I want or need will be sabotaged, that I can never rely, depend, count on, him for anything. That he will put me down in front of the children, he will dismiss and undermine my authority as a parent . That he will make no attempt to be a part of parenting and will teach the children that a man tries to get out of anything a woman requests in a marriage. That he will dismiss me and all of my communications as stupid. For every step that I take forward he will knock me two steps back. I learned that he does not think it is important to be with me. That computer games or sitcom reruns from the 60’s, late night talk shows, ballgames, etc. are always more important than me. I learned that his desire to punish and emotionally abuse me for something his mother did to him as a child is stronger than any desire for intimacy with me. I learned that I am the only one working at affection, intimacy and the marriage. I learned that he can not give praise, acknowledgement, or compliments. That he can not give affection unless prompted and then feels that he is servicing me. That he sees the expression of love as a weakness rather than enjoyment. That he never asks for help nor does he offer help. He makes you beg for help so that he feels needed and then has the opportunity to turn you down, make you wait, forget it or just screw it all up. I learned to watch what he does rather than what he says because he will say anything he thinks I want him to say but never follow through.
I learned that I have wasted all of my adult life with a man who is an emotional cripple incapable of an adult relationship. I learned that I can not count on him to change.
I have learned that my marriage has been a mirage, a dream that he never participated in. I learned that trust is a fragile concept and that once it is betrayed it is never the same again.
I learned that I am responsible for myself and my own happiness, that life is too short to spend it with a PA spouse and I am too old, tired to continue. Most of all I learned that PA behaviors are not love in any shape or form. He may love to manipulate, use, emotionally abuse and control me but that is not a loving marriage relationship. I value myself and my sanity too much to continue. To continue would be condoning his behavior and would make me a sadist.
I have learned that you must write down a plan. The plan can be changed but you must have a plan written down. So here is my plan. Fix up the house, present him with a separation agreement, either move or move him out, change my name back, and go on a cruise or vacation, buy a dog ( my elderly Westie died this year). Learn to play bridge and majhong, exercise and go to church more ( he has always refused and now that the kids are grown and gone I rarely go but I can be brave and go by myself). And I am going to reward myself for a change.
I have had patience….to much for too long … his favorite game is WAIT….now I am not waiting I just want to see progress.
Arborgreen- Look at you, Girl! Wow! That first paragraph was like reading all the options for a game of monopoly or something. LOL. You have so many ways to go, and it sounds like you’re just having a ball thinking about all the ways you can put it together. I think that’s absolutely wonderful!
I also enjoyed reading all the things you’ve learned. Even tho some of the lessons we learn are not fun, the main thing is to learn them. I think one of the greatest things you seem to have learned is that you deserve to be treated better. Unfortunately we stay in this kind of relationship way to long because at first we don’t feel like we are worthy of any better. That it must be us. I’m so glad you are sounding like you are back on track to believing that you really are special and as such deserve all that being special brings.
Going to church by yourself isn’t so bad. I’ve been going alone also. Sometimes you have to go to a few different ones until you find one where the people actually seem to practice what the minister preaches about love for your fellow man and woman. I know one I went to they said to stand up and greet each other, and not one person acknowledged me. That was the last time I went. Then I found this little church where the minister is a young woman who seems very real about her own sins, and the congregation has been very welcoming. It’s like anything else, you just have to find the one right for you.
Keep in touch. You help lift my spirits. LOL
Wow, I have fought, argued, screamed, cried, b*tched, whined, got mad, got depressed and even tried to get even. For 9 years i have done everything, trying to get my husband to understand the mental damage he is doing to me and my children. This is my second marriage his first…. Believe it or not it was not until last night that we even figured out what his issues were. After talking to his mom today at lunch he did find out that his grand and great grand fathers both had P.A. So being that we are struggling thru all of this and it is all new, please give me advice, knowledge or something to lead us in the right direction.
Hi JacQui- You’re off to a great start. At least he’s willing to look at the idea he is passive aggressive. My next suggestion would be to either get him into therapy to work on his issues, you into therapy for support, and then possibly couples therapy for the two of you to work on issues together. However you get started, getting started is the main thing. (and no I’m not a therapist so I don’t get paid for making this kind of recommendation. LOL) You may have to go through a few therapists to find a good one or one you’re comfortable with and understands passive aggressiveness.
For you, a lower cost alternative but still a great avenue for support may be some kind of group therapy, or a group like Al-Anon. Even tho it was set up for family of alcoholics, I hear it’s great in general for dealing with any kind of relationship problems and how to cope. One of the main things for you is to get some support so you don’t start blaming yourself for what’s happening in your relationship. When someone is a true passive aggressive, it has nothing to do with who they are with, it is all on them. You need to work on keeping your self-esteem in tact and not let his issues drag you down and isolate you.
I also would start building a self-esteem file for times when you’re not feeling like yourself. I even keep loving messages on my cell phone to be able to go back and listen to them when I need a lift.
You can check out the “recommended reading” list for material that explains the passive aggressive man, etc. The more you know and understand, the better prepared you’ll be to help yourself and your children. You’ll want to start helping them understand if he seems emotionally disconnected, etc so they don’t think it’s because they aren’t good enough.
Good luck to you, and feel free to stop by and let us know how you’re doing, or if you need a place to vent, etc. There are a bunch of us here who really do understand what you’re going through.
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